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	<title>Comments on: Closed QCOM and USO Calls for a Profit and Added to DIA Position</title>
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	<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/</link>
	<description>Investing in Stocks Through Options</description>
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		<title>By: Alex Fotopoulos</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4672</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fotopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4672</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link.  That&#039;s the most informative I&#039;ve seen so far probably.  The take-away I get is that the law is hazy at best and thus makes a case tough for the IRS to make against someone rolling options when one leg was covered at a loss.  
I would think the underlying stock/ETF would be used as the identical item, but at the same time understand that different strike prices and dates could change that substantially.  I think I&#039;ll walk the line with trying different dates and prices to give me two differentiating factors if ever a case is brought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link.  That&#8217;s the most informative I&#8217;ve seen so far probably.  The take-away I get is that the law is hazy at best and thus makes a case tough for the IRS to make against someone rolling options when one leg was covered at a loss.<br />
I would think the underlying stock/ETF would be used as the identical item, but at the same time understand that different strike prices and dates could change that substantially.  I think I&#8217;ll walk the line with trying different dates and prices to give me two differentiating factors if ever a case is brought.</p>
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		<title>By: I_Am_Not_Herbert</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4664</link>
		<dc:creator>I_Am_Not_Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4664</guid>
		<description>I found this article today:

http://www.tradersaccounting.com/faq_answers.php?id=34

Note the following:

&lt;B&gt;As to expiration dates, the wash sale rule should not apply to QQQ options which are identical in all respects other than time to maturity.&lt;/B&gt;

Note that this is opinion, not IRS precedent.  But it&#039;s probably the rule I&#039;m going to adopt until I find solid information the contrary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this article today:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tradersaccounting.com/faq_answers.php?id=34" rel="nofollow">http://www.tradersaccounting.com/faq_answers.php?id=34</a></p>
<p>Note the following:</p>
<p><b>As to expiration dates, the wash sale rule should not apply to QQQ options which are identical in all respects other than time to maturity.</b></p>
<p>Note that this is opinion, not IRS precedent.  But it&#8217;s probably the rule I&#8217;m going to adopt until I find solid information the contrary.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Fotopoulos</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4659</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fotopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 15:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4659</guid>
		<description>If you didn&#039;t have to take your profit/loss until close your position in full, you could carry it forever hypothetically and I don&#039;t see the Gov&#039;t allowing that.  In a wash sale, you DO have to book income, you just can&#039;t deduct the loss.  Sometimes it&#039;s worth it to not worry about the taxes if you can make up the difference in gains, but I rarely take that risk.  
I&#039;d love to hear more from your research and comments from others too if anyone has some hard facts on it.  Not being an accountant, I&#039;m only translating at my simple level.  
I&#039;ve read before about running your account as a business and using mark to market.  I just read the same thing again on a Yahoo! message board, but don&#039;t know any more about the restrictions with it.  That might point you in a direction for further research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you didn&#8217;t have to take your profit/loss until close your position in full, you could carry it forever hypothetically and I don&#8217;t see the Gov&#8217;t allowing that.  In a wash sale, you DO have to book income, you just can&#8217;t deduct the loss.  Sometimes it&#8217;s worth it to not worry about the taxes if you can make up the difference in gains, but I rarely take that risk.<br />
I&#8217;d love to hear more from your research and comments from others too if anyone has some hard facts on it.  Not being an accountant, I&#8217;m only translating at my simple level.<br />
I&#8217;ve read before about running your account as a business and using mark to market.  I just read the same thing again on a Yahoo! message board, but don&#8217;t know any more about the restrictions with it.  That might point you in a direction for further research.</p>
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		<title>By: I_Am_Not_Herbert</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4658</link>
		<dc:creator>I_Am_Not_Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4658</guid>
		<description>Thanks Alex.  I&#039;m not at all well versed on the tax implications of Options.  I see your point that a rolled option most likely qualify as a wash sale (although my two second Googling seems to indicate that this isn&#039;t 100% certain).  But I&#039;m not sure how important this is.  Even if it is a wash sale, it&#039;s still only an unrealized paper loss until you close out the position entirely.  You&#039;re not out of pocket on the &quot;loss&quot; yet.

I&#039;ll have to think more about this and do some more research on the tax consequences.  For one thing, if it is a wash sale, then that also must mean that you don&#039;t have to book any of the income either for tax purposes until the position is closed out, apparently meaning that you collect premium tax free until you let the position expire.  Which seems odd.

I appreciate your feedback.  Obviously I have more reading to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Alex.  I&#8217;m not at all well versed on the tax implications of Options.  I see your point that a rolled option most likely qualify as a wash sale (although my two second Googling seems to indicate that this isn&#8217;t 100% certain).  But I&#8217;m not sure how important this is.  Even if it is a wash sale, it&#8217;s still only an unrealized paper loss until you close out the position entirely.  You&#8217;re not out of pocket on the &#8220;loss&#8221; yet.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to think more about this and do some more research on the tax consequences.  For one thing, if it is a wash sale, then that also must mean that you don&#8217;t have to book any of the income either for tax purposes until the position is closed out, apparently meaning that you collect premium tax free until you let the position expire.  Which seems odd.</p>
<p>I appreciate your feedback.  Obviously I have more reading to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Fotopoulos</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4657</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fotopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4657</guid>
		<description>Thanks Not Herbert.  That explains a lot, but I would see the loss on rolling an option as a loss you could NOT write off for taxes due to the wash rule if you rolled it.  The loss of the tax write off is enough for me not to roll my options when I have a loss.

Here&#039;s the link the the IRS.gov site that explains it along with a snippit of the text.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#d0e12561 
Wash Sales
You &lt;strong&gt;cannot deduct losses&lt;/strong&gt; from sales or trades of stock or securities in a wash sale. 
A wash sale occurs when you sell or trade stock or securities at a loss and within &lt;strong&gt;30 days before or after the sale &lt;/strong&gt;you: 

- Buy substantially identical stock or securities,

- Acquire substantially identical stock or securities in a fully taxable trade, or

- &lt;strong&gt;Acquire a contract or option to buy substantially identical stock or securities.&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Not Herbert.  That explains a lot, but I would see the loss on rolling an option as a loss you could NOT write off for taxes due to the wash rule if you rolled it.  The loss of the tax write off is enough for me not to roll my options when I have a loss.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the link the the IRS.gov site that explains it along with a snippit of the text.<br />
<a href="http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#d0e12561" rel="nofollow">http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#d0e12561</a><br />
Wash Sales<br />
You <strong>cannot deduct losses</strong> from sales or trades of stock or securities in a wash sale.<br />
A wash sale occurs when you sell or trade stock or securities at a loss and within <strong>30 days before or after the sale </strong>you: </p>
<p>- Buy substantially identical stock or securities,</p>
<p>- Acquire substantially identical stock or securities in a fully taxable trade, or</p>
<p>- <strong>Acquire a contract or option to buy substantially identical stock or securities.</strong></p>
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		<title>By: I_Am_Not_Herbert</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4655</link>
		<dc:creator>I_Am_Not_Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4655</guid>
		<description>CBOE&#039;s Index Options are cash settled European style options.  You can learn more about them here:

http://www.cboe.com/Products/Cash-SettledIndexOptions.aspx

Because they are cash settled, there is no opportunity for call writing, since there is no underlying equity.  Thus, if you don&#039;t want to take a loss at assignment, your only choice is to roll-over the Option to the next month at assignment.  By executing the rollover as a spread trade, you guarantee that you&#039;ll execute both portions of the trade simultaneously, and thus you only have to concern yourself with the Net Credit you&#039;ll receive by executing the spread.

I use Fidelity, so I can&#039;t speak to the symbology of TD Ameritrade.  However, you did find the right symbol on Yahoo!  Here&#039;s the Yahoo! list of Nov. DJX Options:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/op?s=DJX-X.W

The more I think about this, the more I like removing the risk of assignment.  You know that nothing can happen until expiration, and you know you can roll your Option over (although maybe not at a favorable Net Credit) if you don&#039;t want to take the hit at assignment.  And because you&#039;re dealing with Index Options, the chance of going to 0 (i.e. losing all of your committed capital) is practically 0.  So it becomes a pure play on the market.  Except, as a Put seller, your pure play includes the collection of time premium.

And I don&#039;t see anything that would stop you from rolling over your Option position infinitely.  Of course, to save commissions, you&#039;re better off letting winning Options expire and simply opening up a new position for the next month.  But if your short Put is ITM, roll it over until the world ends and keep collecting that time premium.

I must be missing something.  Am I?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CBOE&#8217;s Index Options are cash settled European style options.  You can learn more about them here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cboe.com/Products/Cash-SettledIndexOptions.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.cboe.com/Products/Cash-SettledIndexOptions.aspx</a></p>
<p>Because they are cash settled, there is no opportunity for call writing, since there is no underlying equity.  Thus, if you don&#8217;t want to take a loss at assignment, your only choice is to roll-over the Option to the next month at assignment.  By executing the rollover as a spread trade, you guarantee that you&#8217;ll execute both portions of the trade simultaneously, and thus you only have to concern yourself with the Net Credit you&#8217;ll receive by executing the spread.</p>
<p>I use Fidelity, so I can&#8217;t speak to the symbology of TD Ameritrade.  However, you did find the right symbol on Yahoo!  Here&#8217;s the Yahoo! list of Nov. DJX Options:</p>
<p><a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q/op?s=DJX-X.W" rel="nofollow">http://finance.yahoo.com/q/op?s=DJX-X.W</a></p>
<p>The more I think about this, the more I like removing the risk of assignment.  You know that nothing can happen until expiration, and you know you can roll your Option over (although maybe not at a favorable Net Credit) if you don&#8217;t want to take the hit at assignment.  And because you&#8217;re dealing with Index Options, the chance of going to 0 (i.e. losing all of your committed capital) is practically 0.  So it becomes a pure play on the market.  Except, as a Put seller, your pure play includes the collection of time premium.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t see anything that would stop you from rolling over your Option position infinitely.  Of course, to save commissions, you&#8217;re better off letting winning Options expire and simply opening up a new position for the next month.  But if your short Put is ITM, roll it over until the world ends and keep collecting that time premium.</p>
<p>I must be missing something.  Am I?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Fotopoulos</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4652</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fotopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4652</guid>
		<description>Mark, Check this post http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/07/08/early-option-assignment-on-kft-and-sold-mhk-naked-calls/ for an example of a letter sent to me for an earlier option assignment.  In short, if I sell a put at 50 and the stock drops below 50 the shares are &quot;assigned&quot; to me which means I have to buy them.  If I sell a call at 50 and the shares trade above 50 I&#039;m forced to sell them.  In the example I provided in the link above I was forced to buy the shares before expiration which is the 3rd Friday of every month.

Not Herbert, DJX doesn&#039;t come up for me in TD Ameritrade.  I see DJX-X.W in Yahoo!, but not with a ticker that works in AMTD.  I don&#039;t mind the potential of a pre-expiration assignment.  That would just allow me to sell calls sooner, with less risk than I take when I sell calls on positions I assume will be assigned to me.

Jack, Yes we are in unchartered waters now, but to me it makes it a better time to use options.  Buying puts for downside protection or selling puts with high premiums can be safer than just buying a stock outright.  The same goes for calls.  Look what I just did with USO.  I sold a call in the money instead of selling the stock and pulled in an extra $100 more than I would have if I had just sold the shares outright.  Volatility is so high that it helps increase premium costs and lessens risk some for sellers.  Selling more puts than you can afford to buy the underlying shares on is rarely smart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, Check this post <a href="http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/07/08/early-option-assignment-on-kft-and-sold-mhk-naked-calls/" rel="nofollow">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/07/08/early-option-assignment-on-kft-and-sold-mhk-naked-calls/</a> for an example of a letter sent to me for an earlier option assignment.  In short, if I sell a put at 50 and the stock drops below 50 the shares are &#8220;assigned&#8221; to me which means I have to buy them.  If I sell a call at 50 and the shares trade above 50 I&#8217;m forced to sell them.  In the example I provided in the link above I was forced to buy the shares before expiration which is the 3rd Friday of every month.</p>
<p>Not Herbert, DJX doesn&#8217;t come up for me in TD Ameritrade.  I see DJX-X.W in Yahoo!, but not with a ticker that works in AMTD.  I don&#8217;t mind the potential of a pre-expiration assignment.  That would just allow me to sell calls sooner, with less risk than I take when I sell calls on positions I assume will be assigned to me.</p>
<p>Jack, Yes we are in unchartered waters now, but to me it makes it a better time to use options.  Buying puts for downside protection or selling puts with high premiums can be safer than just buying a stock outright.  The same goes for calls.  Look what I just did with USO.  I sold a call in the money instead of selling the stock and pulled in an extra $100 more than I would have if I had just sold the shares outright.  Volatility is so high that it helps increase premium costs and lessens risk some for sellers.  Selling more puts than you can afford to buy the underlying shares on is rarely smart.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Payne</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4648</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4648</guid>
		<description>The ship is still treading unchartered waters rght now.  I am afraid of options particularly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ship is still treading unchartered waters rght now.  I am afraid of options particularly.</p>
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		<title>By: I_Am_Not_Herbert</title>
		<link>http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/2008/10/17/closed-qcom-and-uso-calls-for-a-profit-and-added-to-dia-position/#comment-4646</link>
		<dc:creator>I_Am_Not_Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mytradersjournal.com/stock-options/?p=1056#comment-4646</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious why you&#039;re trading DIA and not DJX.  I&#039;ve come to realize that the stress I&#039;ve been incurring regarding the possibility of getting assigned my open XLF and INTC options (stress due to my wife getting pissed, not about a margin call), could have been avoided by playing DJX instead.  Since they&#039;re European style, the possibility of pre-expiration assignment is eliminated.  Thus, if you&#039;re ITM near assignment, you can roll them over to the next month, collect some more premium and never have to worry about getting assigned.  It seems as though you could do this forever until the market rebounded.

And the premiums are almost as fat as the DIAs.  Take the Nov 80 selling for about 3.50.  That gives you 10% market downside before being ITM, and you&#039;re collecting 4% on your margined capital.  Of course, that 4% is a function of the insane variability at present, so that&#039;s not something to expect long term.

And worst case, if the Dow is at 7,000 in Nov, you roll it over to Dec., collect the premium again, and never fear getting assigned.

I&#039;m still wet behind the ears when it comes to options, so maybe I&#039;m missing something here.  If not, seems like a sure thing.

Now if I can only gain my wife&#039;s trust back...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious why you&#8217;re trading DIA and not DJX.  I&#8217;ve come to realize that the stress I&#8217;ve been incurring regarding the possibility of getting assigned my open XLF and INTC options (stress due to my wife getting pissed, not about a margin call), could have been avoided by playing DJX instead.  Since they&#8217;re European style, the possibility of pre-expiration assignment is eliminated.  Thus, if you&#8217;re ITM near assignment, you can roll them over to the next month, collect some more premium and never have to worry about getting assigned.  It seems as though you could do this forever until the market rebounded.</p>
<p>And the premiums are almost as fat as the DIAs.  Take the Nov 80 selling for about 3.50.  That gives you 10% market downside before being ITM, and you&#8217;re collecting 4% on your margined capital.  Of course, that 4% is a function of the insane variability at present, so that&#8217;s not something to expect long term.</p>
<p>And worst case, if the Dow is at 7,000 in Nov, you roll it over to Dec., collect the premium again, and never fear getting assigned.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still wet behind the ears when it comes to options, so maybe I&#8217;m missing something here.  If not, seems like a sure thing.</p>
<p>Now if I can only gain my wife&#8217;s trust back&#8230;</p>
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